The Wisconsin Investor
Each week, we bring you interviews with some of Wisconsin's top real estate investors who share their tips, tricks, and strategies that you can implement right away. This show is dedicated to helping Wisconsin real estate investors elevate their game. Along with interviews, I'll also dive into hot topics in solo episodes and feature experts from various real estate sectors across Wisconsin.
The Wisconsin Investor
A Bowling Alley, 4 Kids, Full Time W2's, and 48 Units With Justin and Moira Callan
This power couple from Wisconsin has mastered the art of balancing careers, family, and a thriving portfolio of 48 rental units. Discover how they've strategically leveraged Home Equity Lines of Credit (HELOCs) for rapid growth and gain insights into their ambitious redevelopment project turning a historic bowling alley into valuable workforce housing. Their story isn't just about financial success; it's about creating community-focused investments that address local housing shortages.
Join us as Justin and Moira reveal the nuances of self-managing properties while juggling full-time careers and raising four children. They share how involving their kids in real estate projects nurtures a strong work ethic and invaluable life skills. With Justin's banking acumen and Moira's marketing prowess, they offer a wealth of knowledge on building trust with contractors and tenants, making strategic investments, and maintaining a flexible lifestyle that many aspire to achieve. Their passion is palpable and contagious, serving as both a guide and inspiration for others seeking a similar path.
From recognizing untapped potential in rural areas to mastering the art of contractor selection, Justin and Moira provide actionable strategies for real estate investors at any stage. Learn how they created a network in small towns and secured favorable financing to bring affordable housing to Sturgeon Bay. These insights are not only instrumental for aspiring investors but also highlight the broader impact of thoughtful and innovative real estate development. Whether you're seasoned in the market or just starting out, this episode is a treasure trove of strategies and inspiration to drive your investments forward.
To connect with them, email them at callanpropertiesllc@gmail.com
Welcome to the Wisconsin Investor Podcast. I'm your host, corey Raymond. Oh hey there, guy. Each week, we bring you interviews with some of Wisconsin's top real estate investors, who share their tips, tricks and strategies that you can implement right away. Oh, crepes, this show is dedicated to helping Wisconsin real estate investors elevate their game. Along with interviews, I'll also dive into hot topics and solo episodes and feature experts from various real estate sectors across Wisconsin, you betcha. So sit back, relax and enjoy the show. Welcome back, guys.
Speaker 1:We are here with the Callen family and I'm super excited to talk to them today. I'm your host, corey Raymond. This is another episode of the Wisconsin Investor Podcast, and we have quite a bit of topics we're going to get into today. So I just told them prior that I'm going to have to keep an eye on the time here, because otherwise we could probably go for hours and hours, and hours, and I know our attention spans in the TikTok era are not set up for that. So we're going to dive into it. Justin, laura, how are we doing? Or Maura, how are we doing today?
Speaker 2:Great, very good.
Speaker 1:Good, good. Welcome to the show, guys. I'm excited to have you on here. Justin and I, we got to meet really, justin, I think it was, was it through mutual connections and then got connected to you as a banker. Is that how we?
Speaker 3:got started.
Speaker 1:Okay, tell the audience a little bit about some stuff that you do in the banking world and how you're kind of in a big wide network, I would say now as like the go-to guy for some certain products.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I'm with Johnson Financial Group as a private banking relationship manager and where we got going really with helping your sort of clients or investors, I should say, in the real estate world is the fact of our home equity sort of separates us a lot from our competition there. So we're able to go typically 90% loan to value, where most places are going up to 80%. Minimal cost in most situation A lot of situations no cost for our clients. Minimal cost in most situation a lot of situations, no cost for our clients.
Speaker 3:And the speed of how quickly we can get it done also separates us from our competition. We're able to a lot of times get it done in a couple of weeks. Sometimes three, four weeks. It really depends if we got to order an appraisal, but most of the time we're using automated value. That just again makes it very quick for our clients. That you know. A lot of times in the real estate world we want to be able to get it done quick. So this allows that. Where you know our competition it could be four to eight weeks. It really depends. It's all different out there but we have been quick and much more affordable and as real estate investors as well, we've tapped into ours and used it the way that I suggest clients right away maybe use it for 20% down on a property, get your money, then do improvements, improve rents in our scenario and then get a reappraise. Then you can pay yourself right back after you do that cash out on your property.
Speaker 1:The old BRRRR strategy, my favorite, yeah, yeah. So if you guys have listened to any episodes I think on every episode now I think you guys are going to be like episode 20 maybe or somewhere in that ballpark I think I mentioned at least a HELOC on all 20. I don't know how, but it's my favorite tool. It's probably my favorite financing tool, especially in the era of how much equity most people have sitting untapped in their houses and I always call it dead money. It's just sitting. You already paid it in but now you can't access it unless you open a HELOC or you refinance, which most people. If you've got a low interest rate, you don't want to refinance your house.
Speaker 3:So it's an awesome. Yeah, I always say hard money is great, but if you don't have to pay that rate, you don't have to pay those fees. Like why wouldn't you?
Speaker 1:And you can get a lot more competitive than with your offers right In a competitive environment. Everybody talks about prices are too high, blah, blah, blah. It's like well, you can still get a lot of good deals if you can bring your lending costs down right, and that's avoiding the hard money lender. Working with community banks and pairing your HELOC with a community bank that's a great, great tool. So I love it. So I just want to get that out there. Talk a little bit about you guys. So you're on the banking side, right, so you understand the underwriting and all that sort of stuff. But talk about you guys personally. You know more. Maybe you're into some interesting things right now with a bowling alley and some state financing and things like that. Maybe just first give us an overview of what the total real estate picture looks like for you guys, and then I want to hear, I want, maybe we'll transition into the cool project that you're working on in Door County.
Speaker 3:Do you want to share how we got into it, even.
Speaker 2:Why don't you start with how big our portfolio is and what we've been able to do with that portfolio?
Speaker 3:So right now we have 48 units consists of eight apartments. Again, we you know backtracking really. How we got into it is 10 years ago. Current house that we're in we wanted to buy, so Maura's first house. Not an ideal time to sell Like she's, like we should be able to get a lot more for this let's. We sort of talked about it. We had.
Speaker 2:She has a lot of family with history and property management that gave us some good tips, so it was like all right, let's, let's jump in and try a single family home rental and it was my first home and I had spent so much time remodeling this and getting it to be a perfect starter home.
Speaker 2:You know, like every 22 year old dreams of doing. I was living the dream and then, when we got this house, living in it for a while, becoming disconnected, I thought that that disconnection would would help and we'd be able to continue. I just could not stand watching people live in my home and be, that up close, and personal and the market was taking off and I was like now's the time to sell, and so then I quickly learned about property gains tax.
Speaker 1:Oh yes.
Speaker 2:And I was like we are not doing that. And Justin, with his vast network, had introduced me to somebody who had a property for sale right next door. That was a four unit that had the opportunity to become a five unit, and so that's where we saw the potential. It was a garden unit. It's completely empty. It was must've been an office or something to that extent, and we decided to turn it into a studio apartment, and so we learned a lot about code, we learned a lot about the permitting process and architecture, so we really learned this quite organically, okay, and we then were introduced to somebody else who was like you want to buy my four unit right down the street? So we're like, yeah, sure. And so it's really kind of snowballed from there in regards to buying additional properties. Most of them we've been introduced to by our network or people such as you that have allowed us to find those opportunities that always had a bit of untapped potential.
Speaker 1:That is awesome. So a couple of nuggets that I just heard in there the network, right. They always say your net worth is equal to your network or vice versa, Network is equal to your network, whatever it is. But you guys are literally using your network to grow your net worth by buying tangible assets, which is super awesome. And then the other piece of that that I heard guys is like growing organically. It sounds like you didn't take a course, you didn't sit and study for years and years and years. You saw an opportunity and you went for it and you learned on the job, kind of a thing, right?
Speaker 2:We listened to a lot of podcasts similar to yours, that it wasn't really necessarily the nuggets from it, but hearing people's backstories to be like put your nose to the ground and just go. There's risk in everything. But in running the numbers it felt very calculated. And then also with our combined skill sets from the different career paths that we've taken, we're like we do have a complete circle of the skill sets that we believe are needed and there's people that we knew within our network that were always willing to help, always.
Speaker 1:Awesome. I think that's important too is the going to events and things like. We run a group in Green Bay called the REI Success Club. There's RIAs all over the state. There's this group that started up called Caffeine and Cashflow. It's going out, it's meeting people, doing the do, tapping into their network. A lot of these people have spent decades building a network that they're quite literally happy to share with you and are doing a favor to everybody by helping out.
Speaker 1:I refer you, justin, I don't know, probably at least once a week to somebody, right, and I am happy to do it, you know, because it's it's to me, I think it's something I believe in, is is a benefit to them, and obviously I know you do a great job as on the banking side of things, taking care of people, but that's another great nugget there too or it's just tapping into that network to utilize. You know, the resources, knowledge, connections of people who've gone before you and then, like you said, you're kind of you kind of do that by listening to podcasts and hearing other people's stories and I think what it sounds like for you guys correct me if I'm wrong here, but it sounds like you guys got sort of that sense of belief, like if they can do it, we can do it, kind of a thing by listening to some of that 100% Hearing people's multifaceted stories of I work this job, this job, this job.
Speaker 2:Actually, the guy who introduced us to our first property, he runs a carpet cleaning business because he was sick of paying for carpet cleaning within all of his apartments. So that sort of tenacity I was just completely inspired by. Why would I pay somebody to do something when I can do it and provide that service and create that cost savings in my own business and create a different revenue stream? I was like you are brilliant, that's genius, but you wouldn't necessarily see that on the surface level of quick passing conversation. And I find those people everywhere in this business.
Speaker 3:That's awesome, it's actually a really funny story. So I met the guy through BNI, so I was part of BNI chapter and so was he. And yeah, we brought in our house to do some carpet cleaning and he also runs a karate dojo. So he pulled up in his van and I think it was right before the holidays.
Speaker 2:Like three days before Christmas, three days before Christmas and I was working.
Speaker 3:So I said Maura Jeff's coming by and she's like who did you send me? She's the karate dojo band on one side, one man and a man on the other side.
Speaker 2:I loved him. I still love him to this day. I love exchanging stories with him in regards to how he's investing, where he's moving with it. It's just keep asking those questions to those people. There's interesting stories, absolutely.
Speaker 1:That's one thing I love about doing this podcast is like I don't care if it's somebody who just started out and has just did their first deal or it's somebody who's got thousands of units and everybody in between. I learn something every single time I have one of these conversations about their journey or about real estate or whatever the case is, and so selfishly, that's why I do the podcast is I get to have you cool people like you guys and I get to. I get to like extract information from you guys of like how you got here, what'd you do, and you give me different ideas, like I'm like, oh the clean.
Speaker 1:Like right now, it's just like that's genius, Like now I to think a little bit differently, to like huh is there something in my? Business that I could bring in house that I'm not, and how could I turn that? I mean literally, that's my thought process. As you were saying that more, I was like oh, my God like what, what else could I be doing? You know, yeah, that is super cool. What and what's your background? More so, I know, justin, you have you been a banker forever, or like when did you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've been in banking now for 18 years. So just various different positions between mortgage commercial. So I've worn a lot of different hats.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then what about you, maura? What's your background?
Speaker 2:I work in digital marketing and for Schneider the big orange trucks, so I run the digital marketing aspect of that department.
Speaker 1:Very cool. And you guys are both still full-time W-2? Correct, okay, very cool. So that's? I love that too, because I'm full-time real estate and I love interviewing people who are still W-2s but doing this at a pretty high level in the pockets of their life, right, and you guys have kids as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we have four children ages 20 to eight, so one is our oldest is going to University of Wisconsin-Madison for finance and real estate, so he is following right in line. Justin is the varsity coach for Preble High School, the girls team.
Speaker 3:Then I'm usually coaching two of our other daughters, so it's yeah.
Speaker 2:So we are nonstop go, go go and that has really been awesome in regards to this sort of business. Is that level of flexibility?
Speaker 1:That is so cool. How do you guys do that for those people who are out there listening to you right now that have you know a gaggle of kids running around, coach of sports, doing all this stuff, want to get into real estate, maybe, but are like I don't have the time. How do you guys find the time to weave this in, like, what's the secret sauce over there?
Speaker 3:I think for us is like you got to enjoy being busy right now, because if you're passionate about it enough like you'll make it happen. Like what's your favorite saying about people coming to the busy people always.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the busiest people get the work done.
Speaker 3:So they always are being. We're always being asked of like what, about this or that? And you know, even when we were talking about building the portfolio is funny because, like Morris said, it was all different ways. Obviously, we told you about Jeff, but we've had, we've went your path, we've went where our lender came to us and thought we were a great one, so he helped with our last 17 units. So it's just like one of those things you got to tell people and they know if, if you can handle it, you'll figure it out, and that's one of those things I would also say our kids are all involved.
Speaker 2:Oh so we're big skiers. So before we go out to Granite Peak and Wausau we're stopping at our properties along the way. You know they're along the ride with us Our youngest daughter, caroline. We always call her our little property manager. She loves going around and collecting quarters from the machines, so we just incorporate them because there's so much learning for them. And we look at our oldest, who has witnessed us do this for 10 years and the fact that he wants to go to school for real estate. We're just like we didn't. We didn't ruin your childhood.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you turn, you're turning out. Okay, so far, yeah.
Speaker 1:I know, I think, the struggle for me as a parent.
Speaker 1:So our kid we have four as well, and our kids are right now 12 to two, and so I've been taking the two older ones, my 12 year old and 10 year old, with me.
Speaker 1:Like if I go to go to the office for a day, like sometimes in the week, I'll bring them with and uh and have them shadow me, you know, for the day basically, and stuff like that. But also part of me is like I don't want to. It's balanced. So like I don't want to force you to like have to do real estate because dad does it, you know. It's like I just want to show them how to do, how to interact with people, how to do business, like that kind of stuff. But subconsciously I'm like if you guys do real estate, I think it's a great option, so do it. But it's a struggle of like I don't want to be like the person who's like you got to go do this, you know, or or your or dad doesn't love you. You know they're gonna have some trauma when they're older, so I'm sure they're gonna have some anyway.
Speaker 3:But but at the very least you're helping them think differently and then teaching them work. Ethic is how we look at it Exactly.
Speaker 1:Now, do you guys self-manage these units or do you guys have third-party management?
Speaker 3:We self-manage all.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, you guys are glides for punishment, over there, good Lord.
Speaker 2:I always say we take care of 48 families, so I don't count the number of doors. I'm like we take care of 48 families and we get to know them as much as we possibly can. Again, I work in marketing so I love just understanding what makes people tick, and so we really enjoyed it, and Justin, it does the majority of that day-to-day execution and it's worked out really well for us.
Speaker 1:We always wonder, like, what is that tipping point for us 48, we haven't hit it yet, wow, do you guys have any staff, like full-time staff, that help you out, or is it just you two managing it and running it?
Speaker 3:No, I would say we really have some good trusted contractors and also even some good tenants that we sort of trust. Um, not many tenants that we will be like, hey, go do a lot of things, but some like, hey, in a pinch, can you do this or that, so, but we have a very good at least uh, relationship with them and where we're communicating constantly, so if something is happening, they at least let relationship with them and when we're communicating constantly, so if something is happening, they at least let us know right away instead, instead of like two months later after it happened.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah a big piece of it for us is we're constantly looking at processes and systems. Yeah, okay. So how do we develop those processes and systems in order to allow others to help us?
Speaker 1:okay, cool, I'm sure you guys have set up some automation first. Yeah, like the people who live, and systems in order to allow others to help us. Okay, cool, I'm sure you guys have set up some automation and those people are impacted first Like the people who live there first are impacted.
Speaker 2:So we're constantly, always thinking about. I always say like, pull the string all the way through, so from them what happens next, what happens next, what happens next, what is the ideal? State efficiency is really key.
Speaker 1:Wow, that is really good stuff right there, and do you guys have a software that you use that really helps with automation and that kind of thing or anything that anybody else here listening could, if they wanted to self-manage, could tap into any tools?
Speaker 3:Sure, so right now we're using the app called Buildium, so that's made it a lot easier to accept payments, streamline that process there, and then, even when there's maybe something that needs to be fixed, our tenants can go out there, put a work order out there and we can assign that to one of our contractors, and that's made things a lot easier, okay.
Speaker 1:Very cool, very cool. Yeah, I've heard we use the property management companies I use on the other side of it use Buildium, and then I know I just interviewed somebody else who was using self-management and they're using AppFolio. So I think it's just probably a preference thing.
Speaker 1:If you've tried them out, what works better for you and that kind of thing. That's great. Mauro, talk about this project you got going on in Door County now, and what other markets are you guys invested in first and foremost? It invested in first and foremost. It sounds like you're going out by Wausau area and you've got some stuff on the way. What's the full geographical makeup look like.
Speaker 2:So we have a building here in Green Bay Seymour Shawano, surin and now I'm in the process of building an eight unit in Sturgeon Bay. So really, northeast Wisconsin is our geographic area.
Speaker 1:Very cool, okay, and so you're building one, and then you also have the bowling alley project going on. Yeah, talk about. Let's talk about this now.
Speaker 2:Just a quick backstory in regards to how this project came to be. We have definitely, in every single property that I've really been interested in I should put it that way that I've really been into has been where is their untapped potential in regards to overall space and usage of space? Okay, that very first building that I had told you about it was the garden unit. We could create more revenue by completing that, so the design of the floor plan bringing that all together was really what I was passionate about. Then there was a property in Green Bay where I saw their opportunity to turn these massive one bedrooms into two bedrooms.
Speaker 3:Ooh.
Speaker 2:So we undertook that and all the rest of the properties that we've been purchasing have been fairly turnkey in regards to the overall layout and opportunity, and so I was kind of itching for the most part with the exception of our Green Bay property and I really found in our overall business strategy there to be a niche there and an opportunity. So I was looking at these places in again smaller townships or cities and I was introduced to Scott LaFave and he was kind of interested in doing a development project as well and so he introduced me to Cherry Lane's Arcade Bar in Sturgeon Bay.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And that has one of the longest running bowling alleys. The building was built in 1929. Oh my goodness so it's this cute. It's like it is so cool. If you have not, if you're making a trip to Door County, you should stop there I've been it's a great place. I continue to hear like this place is a hidden gem and now the marketer in me is now. I want to change that, yeah.
Speaker 1:Let's make that a well-known gem, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I was like it's not really in my personal brand to own a bar, and scott was like, wait, there's more. And so on, the second floor of this building is 7 500 square feet of wide open space zoned for residential. Wow, and there was again the untapped potential that I look for when I'm looking and assessing these buildings. Yeah, so the financing opportunity was really how do we pay? How does the bar in the bowling alley and the arcade pay for workforce housing up above? So Sturgeon Bay is just under 10,000 in terms of population and provides so much industry to the United States with its shipbuilding, marine opportunities that it brings and I just felt as though really connected to that cause that these industries can't grow because there's a lack of housing. And then it truly became kind of a passion project from there.
Speaker 1:Very nice and that used to be a big banquet hall right or something up top.
Speaker 2:It was a dance hall. Yeah, it was a dance hall and so it's been so great People have been sending me stories about. They took archery lessons up there. They had boxing matches up there. They had bands come from all over to entertain the people of Sturgeon Bay. So it was. This place has nearly a hundred years of really cool stories. That and that space was unused for decades.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Talk about the you said the financing opportunities. Now talk about some of the types of. Are they grants that you got for for building that out, or is this a loan, special loan program or what are? The programs that you've been able to tap into to help with getting housing built.
Speaker 2:So we have three loans that are creating our capital stack.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And I was really. This is one of the things that I really wanted to learn was what does, what will the government help with in terms of funding workforce housing, as I hear everybody talk about these things. What can we do? So I was introduced through Marty Olanichak of Sturgeon Bay, the city of Sturgeon Bay, and he had shown me two opportunities, so one was through.
Speaker 1:WIDA.
Speaker 2:And this is called Restore Main Street, is the loan that I am taking there, and this loan is specifically created for development of second or third floor apartment residential housing. So we got a 1% interest rate on that loan.
Speaker 1:Whoa Wow.
Speaker 2:For as long as we continue to make it affordable, workforce housing.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:For I believe the commitment is 10 years, wow. So this it is 1% because it is in a community less than 10,000.
Speaker 3:And just barely under.
Speaker 2:Just barely under, like it's squeaking through.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness. So I think it's like 9 986 or something like that and when you, when you build these units, now you're gonna be, you're gonna put it over, so it's the last one that's happening in main street so I am.
Speaker 2:And then the other loan is um through door. County workforce lending corp okay and this is a philanthropic fund is through Door County Workforce Lending Corp. Okay, and this is a philanthropic fund and we will be one of the very first loans that will be funded through this program and our interest rate there is 2.5%, wow. So again, both of these loans are not financing the full construction loan piece of it, but they are. They're more than two thirds of it.
Speaker 1:That's amazing.
Speaker 2:So then we have our traditional bank loan through Bank First. That is helping us with the remainder. So both of those loans through WIDA as well as Door County Workforce Housing are subordinate to our primary.
Speaker 1:Wow, that is awesome. That is so cool. So I love what you did. There is you're like, hey, we got this opportunity. How do we make this the most attractive thing possible and still help out the housing issue? We have, I think, living here.
Speaker 1:I live in Door County and I think when we moved up here three years ago, that was something that we were really passionate about too.
Speaker 1:My wife's originally from Egg Harbor, so she's born and raised here and so, like we know a lot of people in the service industry and it's hard for them to keep the restaurants going and the tourists coming because they can't get people to live here full time. Same with teachers and any any thing you want to try to do up here. To get people to live up here year round is a challenge, and I think what you guys are doing is awesome, because we started looking into building up here and we ran into a lot of red tape and that sort of stuff I've seen Sturgeon Bay seems to be the most probably easiest to work with as far as getting projects done and helping out and wanting to try to help solve the problem and grow their city. So I love what you guys are doing. I think it's fantastic and it's a good win, win, win. Everybody's going to win in this deal by you guys doing this.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. The feedback that I've heard from the community has just been resounding of thank you so much and really excited about the use of that space, and one of the things that Marty had said was I hope that this story creates a renaissance, as there's multiple buildings that are located in downtown Sturgeon Bay that might be a fit for this. I have not personally looked at them, but I might be.
Speaker 1:They're not going to be able to get that 1% loan anymore, mark, because you're going to put it over the 10,000 mark. They're going to have to just use the other one. Yeah, no, no, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:They're still lower for other opportunities there.
Speaker 2:It's just it really. I think what it really sings home is is there's a ton of opportunity in these small town, rural, what are considered rural areas, and the government is also trying to incentivize development in those areas because that's where it's very difficult to find housing. Our building that's located in Searing a local farmer, as well as the school district, has us on dial in regards to let us know if there is a spot available, because we need housing for our teachers and our farm workers, and that was part of my nervousness about going into that sort of market with this very small community was how am I going to find tenants? We've got a backlog and we also have other people in the community who need to run their school, need to run their agriculture business, and that's just the opportunity that we've discovered working in these smaller townships.
Speaker 3:So, to your point, building network is huge to keep even some of these filled, because in Surrey and right away we were worried, is huge to keep even some of these filled, because in Surin, right away we were worried, what 500? Some people there.
Speaker 2:So it's like is this eight unit?
Speaker 3:always going to stay filled.
Speaker 1:But we've had zero issue ever keeping it filled. Oh, that's interesting. And again, every time you guys talk, I'm like, ooh, we had a property up there, like last year or something we were trying to sell and nobody wanted to buy it. Cause they're like I don't know how I'm going to get a tenant in there. I'm like, oh, I should go back to that seller, see if you still got it Hook up with you. Hey, you guys got some overfill. I can sneak over here to this. I'm going to tap my network right here and yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1:That's great. And for those of you, guys that don't know, Surin is a very O'Connell County-ish, so a lot of snowmobiling.
Speaker 1:A lot of you know there's some short-term rental opportunities that we've seen up there. What you guys are describing is really cool about the long-term need there and the rental opportunities. When you guys went for the bowling alley, was this part of the whole master plan from the get-go? Or was this something like let's buy this bowling alley bar because it's a good deal go. Or was this something like let's buy this bowling alley bar because it's?
Speaker 2:a good deal. And then once you got into it, then you started, no, okay, it was, it was. I was only looking at it from a housing perspective. Okay, so I have been wanting to do a development project in terms something that was unused into something that was affordable housing for a long time. So that is something that we very much work towards is keeping within the area median income 80% or less of that area median income has been a goal of ours to ensure that what we're doing is really affordable housing in all of our areas. That has really become kind of our business model and then, as we were developing our overall business strategy, it was like, all right, we have this kind of buy, hold, manage and that can become competitive in regards to purchasing it for the right deal. With that affordable housing mindset and mantra, I saw there to be an opportunity to leverage my passion for design and those types of things and leverage these untapped potentials. So purchasing the bowling alley was all about housing.
Speaker 2:I know nothing about bowling. I've never mixed a Wisconsin old fashioned prior to working there. I know I never even had played pinball prior. I knew the allure of these things. I can honestly tell you I still have not played a complete what do you even call it Bowling game? Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I have not even played one full bowling game since owning it back in April in the beginning of April 2024. I it's, it's all about business to me. I'm looking at each one of the numbers I have again very similar to ensuring that we have the right contractors and vendors to help us with our property management. Making sure that we have the right staff to run. It does not run itself by any means.
Speaker 2:I will say that, but I like the puzzle of that business and knowing that my hard work and effort going into that business is providing affordable housing is keeping that flame going.
Speaker 1:For sure. That's awesome. So it's like really a means to an end for you guys, like the means of like, hey, this can, like you said earlier, support the upper piece of keeping it affordable for the community.
Speaker 2:Correct and the goal is, at the end of the day, that it is purely a real estate deal, so that bar bowling alley arcade, potentially leasing it to a different bar owner, but right now it's it's paying the construction bill.
Speaker 1:Yeah, why get rid of it? Right? Yeah, that's fantastic. Talk real quick.
Speaker 1:And if you don't want to share all the secrets here, I understand. But for those people who are hearing this, I've seen a lot of office buildings going through something similar maybe not necessarily the affordable loan structure and those sort of things. I think those are some cool ideas for people that are looking at conversions of office into residential. But the big hurdle I hear a lot of times is who's going to do the work. How do you guys go about that process? Because it sounds like you've got connections and, like you said, your network. You've got Surin, you've got you know, it's kind of Northeast Wisconsin, but they're not like all in Green Bay or all in York County or something like that. So when you guys are looking at a project like this, is that as simple as hey, let's get several bids on our design, or do you guys have some kind of method to how you guys go about selecting the people who are actually going to do the work and getting the best rates you can on that?
Speaker 3:Part of it started with getting contractors out there and then after a while doing enough of these, it's sort of like all right, we know this is going to cost about this much on that. So part of it is getting the experience down after working through enough contractors and we can go in. But even this, they had to go get multiple bids and feel really comfortable of a general contractor, be able to handle it from start to finish. So but she's had to go through architect work, through the state and yeah.
Speaker 2:All the permitting portions of the process. But yeah, it was. It's a matter of who can get the job done. Number one who do I want to work with to get the job? It's a relationship. And then two, can I do it for the price point that's going to make the investment worthwhile. But I always start out with the relationship first.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so important because it's not fun to go through a project like that with somebody. You're just it was just stressing you out especially with four kids coaching, 48 other units to deal with. Like last thing you need is to have to be chasing down your contractor. Why don't you show up to work when you say you're going to work on it or you know, whatever the case, whatever the case is, we've all had those stories, I'm sure, with contractors. If you've been in this business for a minute, that's part of the thing.
Speaker 1:Something else, I think, just a point I want to hit on for the audience out there is you guys are using the bowling alley as a means to an end, right. I see this a lot with flips for people who are long-term buy and hold investors. When we got started, we never wanted to do a flip. We're like we are strictly burr, we're going to 100 units as quickly as possible. That was our goal, right. And once we get into it, we're like, oh, like it might be easier to get out of my job quicker. That was my original goal was to quit my job as quickly as possible. If we flip as a means to an end to get to the buy and hold goal we wanted, plus be able to replace my income. So I love I. Just another idea of a way to kind of accomplish this, a similar idea of like we're going to. We don't love bowling, I didn't love flipping, but for us at the time it was just like let's just do it, let's do the do, cause we know it's going to produce the outcome we want for a short period of time and then we can look at options later.
Speaker 1:Right, same thing with assets. I see that with like, I see some people stick their nose up and they have different reasons for it. But like an upper, lower duplex, for example, or a triplex or you know, maybe a chopped up four unit, I don't want that. It's, you know, whatever a decent portfolio numbers make sense, but they're just like. I don't want to put that in my portfolio. I look at it a little different. I say you don't have to have that in your portfolio forever, just if the numbers make sense for now, put it in there for three, four or five years and you can always trade that 10, 31, it refinance, pull cash, whatever the case is. So anyway, I just want to make that point. I thought it was really cool what you guys are doing with the bowling alley as just another idea of a way to kind of look at something more than just what it is. Don't love it, but it's producing and it's going to get us the outcome we want, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, and as you know, getting into real estate, you'll get a million opinions, and usually the opinions are coming from people that are not ever been in real estate. Really, right? Yeah, they're the ones telling you not to get into it, but yet they've never done it. Yeah. And then the ones that have been in it um, for the most part, they're the ones telling you to, yeah, get in, and you should have gotten way late, way earlier. So we, of course, just like everyone else, wish they would have gotten in earlier.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, exactly that's why I love talking to young people that are like your, like your son, like, oh my gosh, like I just praise them. I'm like you are so smart for getting in now, like you're going to be when you're 35, you're going to be set for life if you do this right, and that's super cool to see that. So well guys, this has been awesome. Like I have absolutely loved this. I'm going to try to edit out all those, all those little stops we had on the internet here. So, as I'm talking about this, hopefully people will be like what stops is he talking about? Hopefully, whoever this'll be able to cut that out. So apologize about the internet today, cause you guys had so many good nuggets there and I feel like we got stopped a little bit. But this has been great. So we always end with a fun question, and so the fun question is favorite Wisconsin tradition, or if you have a favorite place in Wisconsin that you like to visit, let's hear about it. Justin, we'll start with you.
Speaker 3:For us it's you know we love to ski as a family, so I would say us getting out to Granite Peak is always a lot of fun and we sort of created our kids being ski snobs, as we like to say, taking them to old places in Colorado and that so they always enjoy like the better places, like Granite, nice, very cool, very cool, how all places in colorado and that so they always enjoy like the better.
Speaker 1:Places like granite, so nice, very cool, very cool more. How about for you?
Speaker 2:let me see. I would say my favorite wisconsin tradition is probably a throwback to the university of wisconsin, for aiden is okay, is uh, jump around oh yeah, he doesn't love that it's so much fun.
Speaker 1:yes, environment, jump around at. Oh yeah, I love that that's so much fun in that environment, jump around at Camp Randall when you hear that song start. It's just bananas.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a blast. Well, if anybody wants to get ahold of you guys, if they have questions, either about what you got going on with the conversion, if you guys are open to talking to somebody else looking at maybe doing something similar, or, justin, for you, somebody who's interested in getting a HELOC are you able to lend anywhere? In Wisconsin, or do you have a geographical area that you have to Anywhere in Wisconsin and you can even go, maybe, outside of Wisconsin?
Speaker 3:potentially right. Yeah, Certain states, but not many.
Speaker 1:Okay, perfect. So if somebody wants to get ahold of you, justin, either to talk about that or to talk about HELOCs, do you have a certain place? You want me to send them here, as they're listening.
Speaker 3:They can give me a call at 920-264-5801. Or, if you can add my work email as a link somehow.
Speaker 1:Yep, I can throw that in the notes down below. For sure, maura. How about for you? If somebody wants to connect up with you, what's the best way for them to get?
Speaker 2:in. Yeah, I would say email us at calendpropertiesllc at gmailcom. Us at CallenProperties LLC at gmailcom.
Speaker 1:Beautiful, that's easy enough. Perfect, awesome, guys, thanks for being on today and for those of you guys listening, thanks for tuning into this episode. If you got some value. As I always say, sharing is caring. Share the episode.
Speaker 1:Help somebody else out who's thinking of getting started in real estate. If you're sitting out there and you're like man, I would love to get into real estate kind of like Orange Jester we're talking about before when they got started, and you've listened to enough episodes now and you're like I'm ready to go right. Go to wisconsindiscountpropertiescom and just fill out the contact us form. Either myself or Reese or Connor or somebody else from our team. We'll reach out and do a free call with you just to talk about your goals and anybody in the network, as we mentioned in this episode, anybody in our network that we can connect you with to help you get rolling. And if you're out of state and you're already investing or you want to get started in Wisconsin, same thing go to the website. We would love to help you get started into a great state of Wisco here. And until next time, guys, we'll see you on the next episode.
Speaker 1:Hey, this has been another episode of the Wisconsin Investor. Thanks for tuning in. If you got some value out of the show, please go like rate, subscribe, share, do all that fun stuff. And if you're new to investing in Wisconsin and you wanna have a conversation with somebody from our team, we would love to have that conversation with you. To do that, just go to our website, wisconsindiscountpropertiescom, hit the contact us form, put a little bit of your info in there and somebody from our team will reach out and have a conversation, hopefully help you start moving forward in your investing journey here in Wisconsin. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you on the next episode.
